Forums Erbium Lasers General Erbium Discussion Opus vs Biolase

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  • #2788 Reply

    Dan
    Spectator

    I just returned from the ADA in SF. Spent most of my time investigating lasers. I am very enthusiastic. So, figured online forums would be a good independent resource for further unbiased info. Boy was I wrong. What to believe?! Biolase reps pushed very hard at the meeting. I liked the Opus Duo. I took Joel Whites laser course (very good!). Looks to me that the combo machine is great (ErYag and CO2) and gives us the best of both worlds. Now I am told the company is going under (more biolase hype?). Biolase was impressive also. From what I have heard so far, Biolase is not up front about the cost of theexpendables(tips, etc). The Opus people stated their technology is much less expensive to maintain. OK all of you, from a total novice, which way do I jump? (and i am ready to jump). I think this thread is important to many of us now. It seems the thread here and on Dental Town is degenerating into name calling and is, therefore, of very little help to us beginners. Step up to the plate and help us out.

    #6026 Reply

    dkimmel
    Spectator

    Make sure to look at the Delight before you decide. I have the waterlase. So far I am happy. They are upfront about cost of tips etc. The only thing they did not talk about is an a sevice contract after the first year.
    David

    #6035 Reply

    Dan
    Spectator

    Thanks David, will do. How important in your estimation is the CO2 ability with the Opus Duo? I do plan on using the laser for soft tissue work. Are you happy with the Biolase for soft tissue, coagulation, etc. Thanks again, Dan

    #6039 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Dan: what you need to do is to check out all three units and even the Deka if you want , and recognize that all cut very similar. The differences are smaller than what the companies make them out to be. See who you feel best about with respect to warrantee, service , support, and in addition talk to owners who have lasers from the company.

    I am not a CO2 afficianado but will say that for me the diode is as good as the CO2 and alot smaller.

    If you do alot of oral maxillofacial surgery removing oral lesions such as ulcerated lichen planus, pemhigoids, or other mucosal issues then the CO2 is a good laser.

    It is also good to check out the small diodes . Now remember that with a diode (soft tissue) and erbium package you will pay equivalent to the Duo and in addition you will be able to use the two lasers in separate rooms ( ie hygiene with soft tissue, and the hard tissue in the main op).

    I am not going to get into a this laser is better than that. Many users here can tell you of their experience but do check out Opus, Biolase and Hoya and do ALOT of research before you buy.

    Start by reading the web forum here and see what other threads say ……this forum is very professional in my opinion, but remember that MANY of us have already haggled about this before and are leary to get into it all over again.

    Check out the previous threads on the topic.

    Glenn

    #6024 Reply

    dkimmel
    Spectator

    Dan, Glenn is on target. I have both the waterlase and the lasers smile. I would not wish to be without either a diode or an Er laser. I strongly believe in having seperate units. I am always moving the small diode from room to room . Most of the time I am doing restortive with the waterlase and have to go to hyg to use the diode. It would be real tough to pull the unit out of the middle of a procedure to take care of hyg.
    DAvid
    PS Watch out for Glenn he is a scope pusher. He strarts on you slow and before you know it your looking at the dam things!!!

    #6031 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    David,
    If you REALLY knew Glenn, you would realize that he has a scope……FOR HIS SCOPE! He is SCOPE CRAZY!!! Just kidding Glenn! BUT, on the laser thing, I agree with Glenn….check em all out. I use what David uses, but that new Ivoclar diode, now that looks cool. Glenn, tell us about it if you haven’t already, ok?
    Mark

    #6041 Reply

    Kenneth Luk
    Spectator

    Dan,
    Do look into the Periolase for soft tissue. I’ve only got a diode 980 and looking into HT laser.
    I’d go for the Periolase for perio and soft tissue and an Er:Yag.
    I’d like the idea of keeping the lasers separate too. If one breaks down, at least you’ve still got the other one working for you.
    Ken

    #6034 Reply

    Dan
    Spectator

    OK, now I am getting more comfortable! Yes, I will do my research.No I do not want to open old wounds and discussions. But, remember, MOST of us are not laser literate–we do not want to get burned (no pun). When we enter as a novice and watch the fights–not fun nor helpful. Thanks to all of you and keep the advise coming to us newbies. Dan

    #6032 Reply

    ASI
    Spectator

    Hi Dan,

    I echo the inputs of others to check out all the different players on the laser market. Aside from the many threads on this forum, there is no substitute for the real hands-on experience. Go to a laser office to see it in action. Hopefully you don’t have to go too far. Ask for a demo in your own office.

    It is quite different to see and play with a unit at a show booth and be caught up on the excitment of the moment as opposed to seeing it in someone’s office, and even more different when it is in your own operatory. Once you have done your work in comparing the various makes, you will naturally and comfortably in coming to a decision as to which is the right one for you.

    Good luck and have fun. Don’t rush yourself. Give yourself at least a few months if in doubt.

    Andrew

    #6040 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Thanks David, Mark , Andrew etc……..

    THe odyssey is a cool little laser, which you can see pics from in the CE section where I posted a case and some pics of the laser.

    5 pounds
    7 meter fiber on a retractable spool
    .1- 5 watts increasing in .1 watt increments.
    Simple system with only two modes of operation
    either Continuous Wave or Pulsed at 10 Hz
    600 or 400 micron fibers.
    580 dollars to replace cartridge once 7m is gone
    between 11-12000.

    As for scopes, I have a passion for them and hope that more will realize the value they have for lasers.

    I think scopes are great and today started playing with another tool that I think might become a real asset for lasers……..will hold onto it for a moment or two before posting but it was excellent today for a little 5 year old.

    Take care and thanks for the kind words about scopes……

    Glenn

    #6038 Reply

    Dan
    Spectator

    There are so many obvious reasons to become involved with laser dentistry. I have learned a lot from you guys and this forum. It seems obvious that there are several companies offering decent products. However, as with other new technologies we have all seen, not all of the companies will survive. So, do we take potluck? Ouch, a 50k investment only to see our support fail! I think, though, my biggest concern is the inability to pin down which system is going to give me the results I desire as a GP with acceptable costs of expendables. It sounds like Biolase costs are high. I am reading about cost of tips, and trouble with fiber optics. Opus contends their system is far less expensive. What are your experiences? I do now want to be nickle and dimed to death after purchase. At ADA, no mention was made by Biolase about cost of replacement fiber optics, tips, extended warranties, etc. I did not ask, so partially my fault. Your continued input is appreciated. Thanks again, Dan

    #6042 Reply

    Robert Gregg DDS
    Spectator

    Hi Dan,

    I have used clinically just about all wavelengths used in dentistry–for over 13 years. I am also aware of the different laser devices in the marketplace and their shortcomings.

    So far from what I have read, you are getting the idea about the various company devices.

    There is no way to predict the companies that will survive and those that won’t. There are outfits and individuals that fix and repair the lasers from companies that have gone away, (Excel Quantronic, Premier laser, Sunrise, ADT).

    You DO need to understand the after purchase costs of the device you buy. GET IT IN WRITING. Any company or rep that refuses to detail in writing the long term consumables, warranties needed, the peripherals or maintenance requirements should be taken as a very serious warning for that company.

    Next, you need decide exactly what you want to use your laser for. For example, CO2 is a great wavelength, one of my most favorites, but I use it for what it is best for about 2 times a year. It is best for removing large volumes of tissue like Dilantin and Cyclosporin Hyperplasia, as well as debulking thick tissue. “Me-too” uses like fibroma removal, frenectomies, ahthous ulcers can be accomplished with other wavelengths that do other things much better than the CO2. These are the kinds of things you need to understand about your laser device of interest before you purchase.

    So–what do you want to do with your laser, or what do you THINK you want to do with your laser are the questions to begin your search with.

    For pedo teeth, enamel hard tissue cavity preps–erbiums.

    For periodontal disease treament–you want a dedicated soft tissue wavelenths in the 810, 980, 1,064nm wavelengths)

    Bob

    #6043 Reply

    Swpmn
    Spectator

    Dan:

    Ditto the comments made by Dr. Robert Gregg. We cannot predict which companies will fail and I would be leery about a company which uses “scare tactics” in relation to future health of a competitor. Any dental laser company could go under tomorrow.

    1) From a fair degree of clinical proficiency with erbium lasers Er,Cr:YSGG and Er:YAG I find that these wavelengths are best suited for hard tissue applications

    2) With a much less degree of clinical proficiency with a 810 nm diode laser yet a fair amount of study of wavelengths it appears to me that for soft tissue applications, the best wavelengths for the general practitioner are Nd:YAG 1064, Diode 810-830, Diode 980. I do not have any clinical experience with either the Nd:YAG or CO2 wavelengths.

    If I had the chance to do it all over again, would have first taken a laser course under educators certified by the Academy of Laser Dentistry and achieved Standard Proficiency in my two chosen wavelengths. Dr. White is highly regarded and you’ve trained with the best. Prior to ever using a laser on a live patient would suggest attaining certification in the wavelength.

    Do make sure you inquire regarding post-sale maintenance and disposables. Be aware that with an erbium, e.g., an extended warranty beyond your first year will cost about &#364000 and may be entirely necessary. Eribiums are extremely complicated machines and expensive to repair.

    Al

    #6036 Reply

    Dan
    Spectator

    Thanks again to all for the very good information. Al, it sounds like the extended warranty is a must?? Or does that depend on the particular Er machine?? I will indeed take another course. Dan

    #6027 Reply

    drnewitt
    Spectator

    Hi Dan

    I have just traveled down the road you are getting onto and it seems you are asking all the same questions. I found that in the begining any laser would do because I knew nothing about them. As I began to get more into this site and education the choices started to become a little easier to differentiate. The more I picked up from taking the ALD standard proficiency course and observing offices in my area with lasers the smaller my list of choices became.

    In the end the two companies I had narrowed it down to were offering very similar packages. I believe I would have been happy with either laser, although I was leaning more towards one than the other, but made the final decision based on the education and support (ie extended warranty) that was being offered along with the laser.

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