Forums › Erbium Lasers › General Erbium Discussion › 4th Trunk Fiber in 21 Months???
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SwpmnSpectatorTomorrow I begin with my fourth trunk fiber delivery system since May of 2001 on my Erbium Laser.
Don’t know about you girls and guys, but to me this doesn’t seem reasonable. Personally, I expect a � piece of equipment to run virtually trouble-free for let’s say, 3 years. It’s disturbing to me that after the first year you have to purchase a 񘴘 per year service contract and this is not even mentioned at the time of sale.
When the trunk fiber blows you may be advised that you touched an amalgam or a PFM crown margin or an old metal-containing base or didn’t purge the water out of the system or used powdered gloves or used a damaged tip or you let dust get on your handpiece mirrors until you start to wonder – from a practical standpoint, what can this thing be used for without causing damage to the system?
Signed,
Frustrated in Clearwater
Glenn van AsSpectatorHI Allen………gosh I feel bad for you. I can totally feel your frustration.
I havent had a real problem with my Continuum laser since my foot pedal started acting up (the connection was all frayed) around 6 months ago. I have replaced tips, the foot pedal and filter packs ( as required) and other than that I had one of the fiber holding stands (the fishing pole device) go on me around 2 months ago.
Continuum has been very good to me at replacing things and for limited costs but I know that these companies must also make money. Where is the line?
I have heard that Biolase has had past problems with their fiber. They have had alot of people blowing them. I have not heard of many problems with the ConBio fibers and also I dont worry about all those silly things you mentioned (changing tips with gloves etc…….) Dentistry is hard enough without all those little details to watch on EVERY patient.
Other users from Biolase had problems with their fibers when the Millenium 2 first came out and I thought that many of the issues had been ironed out and resolved but apparently not in all cases.
I have told you and others that I felt that Biolase has marketed themselves fantastically but that the best stable product was Continuums machine in my opinion.
I have taken some grief for my comments but I still stand behind my statements.
I have had very little problem at all with my unit. I also think that Continuum has a great unit but needs to be a little more glitzy in their promotion of their lasers.
I like the fact that I can calibrate my fiber and find out how it is doing on a regular basis and my fiber has lasted a LONG time by Biolase standards.
I dont move my unit much but still move it a little and am a little tough on the fiber but still it has lasted a LONG time. Biolase users have alot of restrictions in order to make their fiber last (minimize movement, no dust, no this and that) and yet some people still blow them.
I know what you mean about rescheduling patients and how frustrating that can be and that patients who have had the laser wont go back to the needle and drill will they.
I have never heard of the trunk fiber in Continuum going but remember that Hoya is a fiberoptic company and it is tough to make the fiber stand up with
all that energy flowing through it and that is why Opus and others have gone with a hollow tube waveguide.I agree with the profit issue but the laser does bring in a ton of patients.
Allen as an aside I am presently trying to change the way and method in which I practice by increasing my fees , differentiating myself from others through the lasers and scopes, improving the service in my office and
eventually perhaps changing locations in a few years.I too am 41 like you and want to start making some great money instead of good money for my retirement and my kids college tuition when they start in
10 years or so it is going to be very very expensive.I think that Dentistry is fun but we all want to be paid well for it too. This has been a hard thing for me to come to grips with especially in Canada where money is almost a taboo topic to talk about.
There seemingly are alot of hidden costs especially with Biolase for their unit and it does seem to need more maintenance than mine. The sapphire tips are
expensive and if they only last a month that isnt very good.Perhaps we both need to keep track of the laser maintenance expenses, the number of procedures and then add some profit and charge the patients an
added laser usage fee so as to make some money and cover the expenses.What do you think, and Bob Gregg should have some ideas on this issue right!!
In closing I would send a nice letter to Keith Bateman and Biolase head office, telling him of your experiences and telling him of your frustrations. Heck mention that you talked to me and that I hadnt had any fibers blow in over three years and have very little maintenance and that you feel that a 45000 dollar machine should be more dependable. What would you say if your Lexus had three engines blow in 1.5 years?
Lets see what they say then………..I dont blame you for your frustration. Let me know if I can be of any help.
Keep your chin up buddy!!!!
Glenn
2thlaserSpectatorHey guys, welcome back Glenn.
First of all, I have to chime in here in defense of Biolase. I only blew ONE fiber, when I was VERY inexperienced when I FIRST got my laser. Other than that, I have not (knock on wood), had ANY problem since. I use my laser for EVERYTHING, I repeat, EVERYTHING possible, every day all day long 4 days a week! We take pride in caring for our machine, and making sure we follow all protocol. When I lectured this weekend at the WCLI, I did a small section on laser maintenece. Boy did it go over well. If I use my laser as much as I do, and not have a problem, why are others having them I asked? SO, I show them what I am doing, and hope that it helps them not have these problems! Al, call Keith, let him know what you are experiencing. He will help I am sure. I know that Biolase stands behind their products, period. They have proven it over and over by the many dentists I have talked to over the last year. Call them!!!!! (Biolase) I can’t say that enough. Glenn, remember, Continuum is a great product as well. Even though I am a Biolase user, I support ALL lasers, and laser users. What works in your hands, Bob’s hands, my hands, Stu’s hands is what we all personally like to use. You might use a #2round bur, I like spoon excavators. Let’s not get into who’s product is better, or worse. Let’s just support one another here, as we have in the past in this forum. Glenn, I tell many about you, and what you are doing with your Continuum and your scopes. I am proud to be your collegue. Let’s work to further laser dentistry/microdentistry period, and help eachother through our frustrations. I am glad you gave great advice to Al to call Keith. Thank you. I hope to see you soon! To all, keep on doing great dentistry with our GREAT tools!
Sincerely,
Mark
SwpmnSpectatorGlenn and Mark:
Thanks for your comments, suggestions and encouragement. Biolase is sending two new handpieces in the morning.
Mark, how about posting for us a summary of your laser maintenance lecture? Please include a description of the technique for purging water from the trunk fiber delivery system.
Thanks again guys,
Al
Robert GreggParticipantHi Guys,
First, Mark, Congratulations on the recognition you have received for giving fine presentations in Dana Point. Sorry I missed you at the Crazy Horse (I live minutes away) but since Billy Bob Brown’s invitation to me got lost in the mail–I didn’t want to crash somebody else’s party.:biggrin: He’s a mean Rock n’ Roller isn’t he?
Al, I feel your frustration too……that’s tough.:( It is part of what I call the technology development curve for lasers in dentistry.
Of course you all know I think pulsed Nd:YAGs are more refined and developed after many years of use and many device itterations–now with digital technology and all. 😉
Pulsed Er, Cr :YSGG lasers and Er:YAGs will get more stable and more damage resistant eventually, as long as there are users, proponents, and a willingness by engineers to build refinements.
Welcome back Glenn. How was the cruise?
QUOTEPerhaps we both need to keep track of the laser maintenance expenses, the number of procedures and then add some profit and charge the patients an
added laser usage fee so as to make some money and cover the expenses.What do you think, and Bob Gregg should have some ideas on this issue right!!
I do strongly feel that future maintenance costs, replacements parts, consumables should be part of the fair and full disclosure by the manufacturer to the prospective dentist customer prior to signing the order.
But to answer the question about costs and fees–I think you should keep a log or journal of your laser usage and activities, maintenance and repairs along with copies of any correspondence with the manufacturer, aside from the fee remuneration aspect.
I would generally raise my fees across the board according to the general increased level of service I can now compentantly render because of the laser benefits to patients.
Having said that, there are a few fees like LPT, crown lengthening that I increase according to my confidence in the outcome, differently than other fees.
Here’s a conversation I might have with a patient:
“I need to remove some bone underneath the tissue in order for the crown I’m going to make fit properly. We have two choices. 1) I can refer you to the periodontist who will pull back the tissue with a scalpel, remove the necessary bone, and close the tissue back into place using stitches. That treatment costs about 輪 and a couple visits to the specialist. 2) Or I can use the laser to move the tissue without making a cut into the gums, remove the necessary bone using the laser, push the tissue back into place–no sutures are necessary. We can do this treatment right now, without additional appointments, AND we can take the impression today for the crown. That service runs 蹢. What would you like to do?”
They say, “OK Doc, what’s the catch on the laser deal? Sounds too good to be true! Here’s my credit card. What are you waiting for? Let’s get going, I have an appointment in an hour I have to get to!”
That’s when you know that you charged too little. And you thought getting 蹢 plus your crown fee was highway robbery, and they are willing to pay much more!!
As an aside, FDA Federal Law requires every manufacturer as part of “Good Manufacturing Practices” (GMPs) to log and document EVERY problem and complaint by customer and by the nature a details of the complaint–whether by phone, letter or email.
Good luck Al!
Bob
Glenn van AsSpectatorHi Mark: congrats on the kudos for your lectures at Dana Point.
Thanks for the compliments.
Read an interesting article by Hibst (sp?) today comparing the erbium yag and erbium YSGG lasers today for anesthetic, soft tissue , enamel and dentin.
It also looked at the hydrokinetic issue and without going into detail this is now the third article officially disputing the mechanism of action as being hydrokinetics.
The article was published in the winter edition of ESOLA (European Society of Oral Laser Applications) and was quite an interesting read.
Suffice it to say the results were not what Stew Rosenberg had told me about recently when comparing cutting ability in dentin, on soft tissue .
Results in enamel were the same and the mechanism of action was the same.
If anyone wants the exact quotes on the article, let me know and I will post them here.
i think that finally we are getting to the bottom of the truth with how different the erbium lasers really are.
It seems that as more evidence is coming out from our scientists that the lasers are more alike than different.
All the best and just wanted to post this before I forgot about it.
Glenn
2thlaserSpectatorThanks Bob, if I knew you were just around the corner, I woulda smuggled you in! You could’ve danced on stage with us sandbaggers! Seriously though, thank you for your congratulations, I just want to teach, and learn. I always get more than I give, and that is what is important. Your very kind indeed.
Sincerely,
Mark
lagunabbSpectatorHi Glenn, Looks like I am probably the only one around interested in reading the ESOLA article, the whole article. My fax number is 413 235 3754. Best.
Robert GreggParticipantRay–
QUOTELooks like I am probably the only one around interested in reading the ESOLA article, the whole article.Excuuuuuuze me!
I want the whole low-down too!
Fax: 562-860-1799.
Bob
SwpmnSpectatorGlenn:
I would like to read the ESOLA research on hydrokinetics. Please post the abstract/summary or send to me via e-mail.
Thanks,
Al
AnonymousGuest1 more?
517-448-7198
the link below leads to more info on that journal. Worth subscribing Glenn????http://www.quintpub.com/journals/jola/gp.htm
Glenn van AsSpectatorOk Here is the scoop………I dont have tremendous time to go and put the article into PDF format and then post it via the net.
I have a hard copy and will mail it to the four of you and then I will depend on the rest of you to put it in PDF format.
I will send it out by mail tomorrow.
Thanks for your interest………its and interesting read.
As for the journal I liked the issue I got a while back but didnt subscribe because I am so darn busy.
Gonna post some cases for you all.
Glenn
whitertthSpectatorme 2 me 2 please…… 516 371 1798 is the fax…thnx alot in adavance
lagunabbSpectatorGlenn, I will gladly scan it into pdf format and post it on a web site for all if you just want to send one copy.
ray tang
p o box 9019
laguna beach, ca 92652-7019
Glenn van AsSpectatorI think that would be wonderful Ray……..could you do that for me.
PS is this a copyright infringement if we do that (Esola wont be mad?)
Glenn
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