Forums › Erbium Lasers › General Erbium Discussion › help with laser info
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adelddsSpectatorI am a pediatric dentist practicing in Long Island, NY and am interested in buying a laser for my practice. I would like to use it for both soft and hard tissue. I saw both lasers in action at the greater New York meeting in November of ’04. I have been in touch with both reps of Hoya and Biolase but both, as you might expect, give very differing views of their respective +/-‘s.
Below is a list of all the info (or misinfo?) that I have acquired. Please help me with the facts. btw – Is it easier to cut pedo teeth than perm teeth?Hoya DELight vs. Biolase waterlase
Hoya seems to have much better visibility
Hoya seems to cut faster (able to increase the frequency?)
Hoya seems to have a much better cable
Hoya claims it is more stable as far as mobility from room to room or office to office.
Hoya will let you test drive in your office.
Biolase will not let you try out the unit in your office.
Biolase seems to have many more users in Long Island.
Biolase will allow for easier water control.
Biolase claims to have much better support.
Biolase has a lot of courses in other doctors’ offices while Hoya will send you to laser academies.
Biolase claims that they own the patent on Hoya’s laser and knows when each one is sold.
Biolase has many more tips for its laser.
Hoya is about 񙦘 less expensive.
They both will pay the doctor for in office demos.
Biolase is very aggressive when it comes to sales.
Biolase claims that it’s laser can numb a tooth but Hoya can not.
Hoya claims that they have much better hemostasis on soft tissue procedures.
Hoya is much quieter than the waterlase.Thank you for your time.
Marc
ASISpectatorHi Marc,
Welcome to the forum.
Pedo teeth are easier to cut than permanent teeth likely because the former’s mineral content is lower and its enamel layer is much thinner. This is particularly true in comparing pedo teeth to densely mineralized adult teeth.
Your list of +/- is pretty accurate except for a few points. The Waterlase may have slightly better hemostasis likely because it is a hotter laser. But the reality is that you need a different wavelength than erbium for proper hemostasis. Hence a single wavelenght may not serve all your hard and soft tissue needs.
The acid test is still having the office demo in your own office. Seeing and working with the unit in your own operatory speaks volume.
Keep researching and the chocie you make will be an obvious one to you.
Good luck.
Andrew
emc85Spectatornever take a salesperson’s word for anything…they are selling lasers.
call up some of their clients for reference.
i don’t believe biolase owns hoya’s patent. they are different wavelengths. erbiums also don’t ‘anesthetize’, they ‘analgesize’ teeth.
there are good guys who use either lasers…but in the end it is what features you like about each.
i like my delight for these features:
-long flexible trunk fiber
-easy visibility of handpieces
-self calibrating-saves you yearly calibration costs
-reliable-not a single blown trunk fiber/handpiece over a year
-portable-no worries of knocking it out of calibration
-quiet
-easy to use and maintain
-don’t require to blow all water out of handpieces before changing handpieces and tips
-sturdy buttons for adjustments
-my assistant found it easier to set up and useall erbium lasers cut…it is these considerations that made me go with the hoya delight.
hope this gives you some insight. there is more information if you want to go to the institute for laser dentistry website. or you can email myself at drncc@shaw.ca if you need any further help. i am no expert, i will tell you just what i know.
good luck!
(Edited by emc85 at 10:14 am on Jan. 22, 2005)
AnonymousGuestQUOTEQuote: from adeldds on 10:55 pm on Jan. 21, 2005
I Please help me with the facts. btw – Is it easier to cut pedo teeth than perm teeth?Hoya DELight vs. Biolase waterlase
Hoya seems to have much better visibility
Hoya seems to cut faster (able to increase the frequency?)
Hoya seems to have a much better cable
Hoya claims it is more stable as far as mobility from room to room or office to office.
Hoya will let you test drive in your office.
Biolase will not let you try out the unit in your office.
Biolase seems to have many more users in Long Island.
Biolase will allow for easier water control.
Biolase claims to have much better support.
Biolase has a lot of courses in other doctors’ offices while Hoya will send you to laser academies.
Biolase claims that they own the patent on Hoya’s laser and knows when each one is sold.
Biolase has many more tips for its laser.
Hoya is about 񙦘 less expensive.
They both will pay the doctor for in office demos.
Biolase is very aggressive when it comes to sales.
Biolase claims that it’s laser can numb a tooth but Hoya can not.
Hoya claims that they have much better hemostasis on soft tissue procedures.
Hoya is much quieter than the waterlase.Thank you for your time.
MarcMarc, 1st of all I believe you will be very pleased when you add a laser to your practice, no matter which brand. I think mine would be worth the price just for doing primary teeth.
That being said, I’ll offer an my opinion on some of the ‘facts’ above.
Hoyas angled tips do offer good visibility although some users of the new Waterlase MD seem to think that new handpiece makes visibility much better than the old Waterlase handpieces.
My experience with the Hoya is limited to a trial at a show on an extracted tooth. It was slower than my Waterlase but this may be due to the amount of desication of the extracted tooth. The latest study I’ve seen seems to indicate that pulse duration (<100usec) may be more important in cutting speed than HZ. Hz is more involved in smoothness of cut.
Anecdotally, Hoya users seem to report very little trouble with their fibers. My Waterlase fiber is about 2 years old now and I’ve had no problems. I think alot of the early fiber problems Waterlase had have been eliminated now. I believe the fiber problems you may hear about now are mostly caused by the operator error- zapping metal restorations and not checking for handpiece damage, sterilization procedure errors that damage the handpiece mirrors and subsequently the fiber, etc.
Mobility- I think you want to be careful moving either
Test drive- not sure this is fair to patients ,especially when the doc’s training at that point is limited to what a salesperson or tech has told them.
Water control- easier on the Waterlase but the only time I change my water settings is on soft tissue
Biolase support has been very good. They all are very expensive after the initial warranty period. NLT will support the Waterlase at a much lower fee, not sure if they do support other erbiums
Courses- while some of the packages include different amounts of training, be sure to figure in what your costs will be for travel/lodging
Some of Biolase’s patents apply to many lasers and they get a small royalty- probably more important if you are considering buying stock vs. choosing a laser
Tips- I think you will mainly use 2 different tips for hard and soft tissue (different lengths) and maybe a third for endo and possilbly a chisel tip for some soft tissue.
‘Biolase claims that it’s laser can numb a tooth but Hoya can not.’ I’d run from whoever told you this and find a salesperson who knows what he’s talking about.
‘Hoya claims that they have much better hemostasis on soft tissue procedures.’ Interesting, as its usually Biolase making this claim. As Andrew said, diodes and ndYAGs are much better for hemostasis than any erbium.
My Waterlase with the original fan was very noisy but with the new mod installed by NLT you can hardly hear it run. The ‘popping’ during ablation is probably louder than what I remember the Hoya being. Not sure this is problematic unless you start the laser next to the patients ear w/o telling them what to expect.
Andrew, hotter laser? Better be careful young man, we don’t want you threatened off any laser forums now, do we? 😉
Finally, if you aren’t using magnification, plan on added cost for that. IMO 4.5X is a minimum for really being able to see laser/tissue interaction and being able to cut at lower power settings.
Marc, good luck with your decision. Welcome to LDF and I hope you take advantage of the wealth of knowledge all these other Hoya, Waterlase, Opus docs contribute here.
drnewittSpectatorHi Marc
I think your questioning of what has been told to you by sales people is an excellent first step before purchasing a laser. Ultimately you are the one who signs that cheque, lease, loan, whatever, and you are the one who has to live with your decision. Getting advice from the laser masters on this forum is a great start but really you need to arm yourself with education. Learn enough about lasers, the physics of how lasers work etc, and you will be able to when a sales person is embellishing the product a little. You will probably feel much more secure in your decision once you understand how the lasers work and you won’t constantly question whether you made the right choice or not.
Pick up Manni’s book, (nice and unbiased) and learn learn learn. Soon you will be telling us what laser we should have purchased!
Lasers are still going to be there a few months down the road, I think, and it is going to take some time to work your way up the laser learning curve, so don’t panic that someone is going to get the jump on you, or the price is going to double, if you don’t buy this week.Learn lots and you will not only sleep better, your patients will appreciate your confidence in the laser you decide to go with. With today’s technology you really can’t make a bad decision with either the Hoya or the Biolase.
Good luck
StomotologSpectatorI say get the Hoya.
Glenn on the roadSpectatorHi Alex……..why would you get the Hoya. I have one but am interested in why you are so sure that you would get one. Do you think that the Waterlase MD is a more technologically advanced laser than the Hoya?
I see advantages to both lasers and for many new users the simplicity of the Waterlase or the Delight compared to the new Waterlase MD is significant. There are alot of bells and whistles on the Waterlase MD.
In addition I think that both lasers have advantages in different design issues, but there isnt as much of a difference in cutting speed etc. In talking to many members like David Kimmel who have both lasers , there is an appreciation for each lasers unique features but that the way and speed that they cut both hard and soft tissue is more similar than different.
I think that everyone who buys a laser believes in their heart that they bought the right laser, and to wear it on your sleeve is great. I have been one of Hoyas biggest cheerleaders but as others have so aptly said here and on DT…….you will be happy with either laser when you buy it but do your due diligence in seeing first which wavelength and secondly which brand are best for your practice.
Some of it varies according to the tech you have, the relationship you have with your supplier, where you are geographically, and what kind of support you can expect in your area in the future.
I say look at all the hard tissue lasers out there and see which one fits your needs the best. I went with Hoya but there wasnt much choice back then here in Canada. I am happy with the service I am getting and would buy the same brand again if I had to, but I will say that there are many many happy Biolase and Opus users here on LDF and on DT.
All the best
Glenn
StomotologSpectatorI have played with both. The Hoya is quieter and has a better “hand piece”- by better I mean better visibility.
The waterlase may look nicer (not too crazy about Hoya’s antenna look), but like you said, they cut the same. So I would go with the better visibility and lower chatter.
HubertSpectatorMark,
I have recently (ca 6 months ago) made the buying decision and I was glad that I was pointed towards the Opus Duo laser. I have not regretted that decision as the two wavelenght offer me a really wide field of application. I can`t imagine a day without laser in the office anymore. Check it out and good luck for you
Hubert
adelddsSpectatorThank you so much for everybody who has replied.
I have seen here and from posts on dental town that most people are very happy with any of the lasers that they purchase. Do you think that either the hoya or the biolase would be better for a pedo office? I would be using it primarly for operative and frenectomies and gingevectomies.
Do both lasers allow for “analgesize” of the tooth. The biolase rep told me that hoya can not do this. I saw the waterlase used to do this. The doctor held it very still for one minute on the occlusal and one minute on the facial. Is this typical with both lasers? I’m not sure I can get some of my pedo pts to sit that still for that that long. (I’m used to working on moving targets!)
I had also heard something about filing down the tips on the hoya to extend their life. Is this true and is it a benefit?
btw – the MD does look real nice but the reps at the show said that it was not worth the extra ฤ,000!
Please give me more info about Manni’s book. Where can I purchase this? Are there any other must have laser books, classes, acedemies out there.
I will also check out the opus laser but I haven’t heard too much about it here or in DT.
PS I am a big advocate of rubber dam. If you are not numbing pts any more, are you guys using any special topical for the placement of the clamps and matrix bands?
Thanks again,
Marc
dkimmelSpectatorHoya DELight vs. Biolase waterlase
Hoya seems to have much better visibility
TRUE BUT NOT AS MUCH WITH THE MD.Hoya seems to cut faster (able to increase the frequency?)
NOT TRUEHoya seems to have a much better cable
IT IS MORE STABLE THEN THE WATERLASE FIBER NOT SURE ABOUT THE MD.Hoya claims it is more stable as far as mobility from room to room or office to office.
I HAVE NOT SEEN A PROBLEM WITH MOVING EITHER ONE OF THEM AROUND THE OFFICE.
Hoya will let you test drive in your office.
TURE , BUT IT LIKE BEING LET DRIVE A RACE CAR AT THE DAYTONA 500 AND YOU HAVE NEVER DRIVEN A CAR BEFOREBiolase will not let you try out the unit in your office.
TUREBiolase seems to have many more users in Long Island.
DON’T KNOW THAT ONE.Biolase will allow for easier water control.
TRUE BUT WATER AND AIR COMBINATIONS NOT AS IMPORTANT WITH THE DELIGHTBiolase claims to have much better support.
I DON’T FIND THAT TO BE TRUE. ABOUT EVENBiolase has a lot of courses in other doctors’ offices while Hoya will send you to laser academies.
TRUE, BIOLASE HAS A BIG ADVANTAGE AS FAR AS TRAINING GOES.Biolase claims that they own the patent on Hoya’s laser and knows when each one is sold.
DON’T KNOWBiolase has many more tips for its laser.
TRUEHoya is about 񙦘 less expensive.
I TRY NOT TO REMEMBER WHAT I PAY FOR MY LASERS.They both will pay the doctor for in office demos.
NOT SURE ABOUT HOYA BUT BILASE DOES.Biolase is very aggressive when it comes to sales.
TRUE AND THEY HAVE ADVANCED LASER DENTISTRY BY DOING SO.Biolase claims that it’s laser can numb a tooth but Hoya can not.
NOT TRUE.Hoya claims that they have much better hemostasis on soft tissue procedures.
I FIND ER LASERS TO BE POOR AT HEMOSTASIS THOUGH THE MD MAYBE THE EXCEPTION.Hoya is much quieter than the waterlase.
TRUE BUT NOT SO WITH THE MDTAC gel is the topical you are looking for.
http://www.jgma-dall.com is the link to Manni’s book
Hope that is of some help.
David
adelddsSpectatorthank you. I found the book on line.
the correct link is
http://www.jgma-daal.com (two a’s, one L)Marc
drnewittSpectatorMarc
one of the things that you may find as you move into laser dentistry, especially with pedo, is that the Isolite is a much better option than the rubber dam. I imagine that only goes with cooperative kids but with Isolite you won’t need clamps or topical for those clamps. Your field is kept clear and light is provided right through the mouth piece. They had small and pedo sizes that work very well with the kids I see. Nice thing about them is that they can be switched around quadrants very fast, don’t require a clamp, and keep the kids mouth proped open.
brucesownSpectatorMy two cents worth on topicals. I have tried a number of different concoctions, and I have settled on plain old EMLA cream. It is an off label use, so be aware of the implications of that. It works quickly and gives pretty profound anaesthesia where you put it. With really young kids, I put it on a cotton applicator and just sit there and watch it, but with cooperative kids I will place it and cover it with a 2×2 and let it sit for a couple of minutes. Seems to work the charm for clamp placement, prior to injections and minor soft tissue surgery. It is cheap and readily available. Give it a whirl.
Good luck, you’ll love your laser, but don’t think you are going to do painless dentistry on day 1. There is a learning curve, so pick your first hundred patients well.
Cheers
jetsfanSpectatorThat question about Biolase knowing when Hoya sells a laser is probably true. Biolase owns just about all the patents when it comes to Erbium lasers in dentistry. Today they just completed a transaction to end patent litigation with Diodem, AKA Colette , former CEO of Premier Laser System. In fact I believe Hoya, as well as the other manufacturers have to pay a royalty to Biolase for the use of the patent. That is why they know when one is sold.
Robert
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