Forums Erbium Lasers General Erbium Discussion an endo case OT

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  • #2902 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    I thought I would post this and tell you that I didnt take any photos of the erbium for the removal of CaOh, but if you use an intra canal medicament , I use CaOh , it can be really tough to get out of the canals. Irrigation doesnt work real well.

    The laser works great and removes the CaOh well in between visits.

    I did it on this case and here are the pics.

    Glen

    Hi there folks: I often get asked for what you see with the scope when you are doing endo, so I thought I would just post a couple of photos from a case I did yesterday for an upper 2nd molar. These photos are not cropped and zoomed. Just added text and no other editing was done. Hope its interesting.

    Some things to note:

    – Tooth was non vital

    – Tooth had 4 canals but MB 1 and MB2 merged (this is cool to see with the scope as you irrigate one canal and fluid pumps into both, and the same thing happens when you dry the canals).

    – The 4th canal (MB2 ) was found after using Ultrasonics with to uncover the canal.

    – I did it in two visits , placing CaOh in the tooth in between.

    – The two canals in the Mesial root were very curved so I worked up to a #20 handfile at patency before going to rotaries and then instrumented these to an O4 taper to not stress the files.

    – Lots of apical anatomy and a simple occlusal at the end. I will need to redo the core and crown prep next time.

    Glenn

    KW endo pg 1.jpg

    KW endo pg 2.jpg

    KW endo pg 3.jpg

    #7000 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    I am a Periodontist and I am impressed!!!
    By the way Glenn my Son is finishing up his final year in Endo-maybe you could give him some pointers!
    AWESOME!!!!
    Danny

    #7007 Reply

    Robert Gregg DDS
    Spectator

    Glenn-

    Beautious endo!!

    Golly Dang those them thar are pretty!

    CLAP, CLAP, CLAP!!!

    You actually been listening at the ROOTS lecture series haven’t you?

    Bob

    #7002 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Thanks Danny and Bob: The key is vision, Bob and Danny you both know that and I am sure that your son knows that too Danny. Where is he going to school, and what is he planning on doing afterwards?

    I really like endo because of the scope……I hated it before to be honest. To many failures that werent through lack of effort. I know it was through lack of vision.

    The scope does complicate matters because you do find WAY more 4th canals. If I dont find one in a molar of any kind, I get very nervous. Its weird. I had one the other day with three distal canals……..

    Its alot of the stuff I learnt from my time on ROOTS forum and also TDO chat (a software program for endo) where some of the gurus really helped me see that I was pitiful at endo compared to what they were capable of .

    I told myself I wanted to improve almost 7 years ago when I saw Cliff Ruddle and Steve Buchanan in Seattle together at their last joint lecture……

    I think I am getting better but some days and cases are easier than others.

    PS look for an apicoectomy with some new instruments from Spartan Obtura that is coming up for me soon. Kinda excited about this one……..

    Gonna use lasers, scopes, new surgical instruments, tiny sutures for two lower incisors…….Yippee.

    Sometime in the next two weeks but I probably will video tape it and see if I can take some pics during the whole process if I can but they will be images captured onthe DV camera.

    Take care and thanks Danny to you and Bob for your kind remarks.

    Glenn

    #6998 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Glenn,
    Very nice…and of course, the magnification is the ONLY way to do fine endo, and you are a master at that. Does your laser tip spark when in contact with CaOH? What energy are you using? Diameter of tip? What do you think of using the small condensor in the laserdentaltool kit for filling of an apico with MTA? Sorry for the questions…just looking to improve what I am doing and trust your observations. Wanna move to Whitefish and become partners? I really like the way you practice! 😉
    Mark

    #7003 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Thanks Mark: You know what the laser doesnt spark at all………

    The water is on and we use either a 300 micron or 200 micron tip at 30 Hz and 50-60 mj.

    You have to keep below 2 watts with the laser endo tips. Maybe lower for the 200 micron tip.

    I put water in the canals and in the orifice and water on the unit. Of course we dont have the control over the water flow that Waterlase users do but I am not sure that in this case it really matters.

    The small condensor is ok but have a look at the new microsurgical instruments from Spartan Obtura that are intended for apicoectomies. The shapes and sizes are specific.

    You can find their home page here:

    http://www.obtura.com/

    and the PDF file for the new instruments here:

    http://www.obtura.com/KiS_BROCHURE_SML.PDF

    I dont need to disclose anything because I dont get anything at all from these. I have ordered a bunch for laser apicos and will show you the case when I do it. I have 2-3 lined up.

    I think I will use MTA if I cant coagulate it, and if I can then sometimes it is better to use bonding agent.

    I probably will use MTA though, and maybe the white stuff as it is a lower incisor.

    I will come and visit you one of these days and maybe do some fly fishing. When I come down that way you can show me how.

    Now of course I would have to move those Waterlasers out to move the scopes into the office !!!!

    Grin

    Take care.

    Oh ya Mark , one other thing, with the DeLight I sometimes fail to notice the sparking because it doesnt set of any fear for me but I understand you want to avoid it if possible with the Biolase.

    For that reason I dont think there is sparking with water in the canals but will look more closely next time.

    Glenn

    #7005 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Mark here is the technique from a molar I did a month or so ago.

    I am trying to figure out now with some of the recent evidence (literature that Ron posted in the lit section) how to use the laser without opening up the foramina (might need lower settings for the apical 3 mm is what I am thinking but will this still sterilize without cutting the foramina).

    Anyways, the pictures tell the story. I opened up the tooth, saw the distal canal and put bleach in …….

    Bubbles.

    Then immediately dried it out and used the laser for 30 seconds in the canal.

    Then removed it and suctioned.

    Put the bleach back in without any instrumentation.

    ALmost no bubbles. Why?

    Well I know the laser is doing something. Under the scope at 16X mag I can see alot less tissue in the canals and debris is eliminated.

    If I go to close to the apex ……it bleeds in the canal (out the end it is cutting either bone , PDL or both).

    Anyways here are the pics study them close!!

    Grin

    Cya

    Glenn

    Endo on molar edited.jpg

    Endo on molar edited pg 2.jpg

    Endo on molar edited pg 3.jpg

    #7004 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Oh one more thing. The skeptics will say is the laser doing anything. Well I wondered that too and when I put the laser tip a mm from the floor of the pulp chamber I get little dots on the dentin.

    Here is one such spot I when I tried to see if the laser was doing anything at all to cut on the floor.

    Glenn

    By the way ( the 2nd image is a crop from the first).

    Lower molar endo spot edited.jpg

    #6999 Reply

    ASI
    Spectator

    Hi Glenn,

    Great stuff. You continue to raise the bar, my friend.

    If the case is non-vital, what are you placing as intra-canal medicament? For the CaOH used here, is it from Ultradent?

    Is the Killer Carr an ultrasonic tip for the Spartan?

    Wonderful post again, Glenn.

    Andrew

    #7006 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hey thanks my good friend……..

    Phew starting to get gun shy again……..

    I use Ultradent CaOh ……..Ultracal I think it is …….it is placed in the canal with the green Navi tips (carefully) as it can be pushed out the canals and can cause problems with nerves and pain.

    The Killer Carr Tip is from eie2.com

    Its Gary Carrs tip………works well as do some of the Spartan US tips (Buc Tips) .

    I like Gary Carr;s tip for troughing. IT works great when looking for MB2 canals

    Hope that helps and thanks

    Glenn

    #6997 Reply

    d2thdr
    Spectator

    Glenn

    I am wondering, just because I’m new and you don’t mention it, if you are making your endo access with the laser or Hi-speed?

    Beautiful photos all throughout this board, and great learning techniques. I can’t wait to get up to speed.

    #7001 Reply

    Hi Dennis……I dont think I have ever intentionally made an access with the laser. To slow , but I use it in almost every endo and I do a fair amount of retreats with the scope. That is when it has tremendous power.

    Hope that helps and thanks for the kind remarks on the pics, its easy with the scope.

    Glenn

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