Forums › Erbium Lasers › General Erbium Discussion › Laser Analgesia
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Glenn van AsSpectatorHi folks: nothing earth shattering. Sometimes we get caught in a case. This 30 year lady had an occlusal restoration that was around 1.5mm into dentin on the radiograph (3.5mm deep) and I thought I might be able to remove it (she wanted it out for cosmetic reasons) and replace it with Gradia. One could try it without the use of the laser, and one could also use LA either infiltrated, or a block. This was just me trying an alternative method.
I asked her if she wanted to try it without anesthetic (local) and try the laser for analgesia. Mark Colonnas technique involves high settings defocussed so it doesnt interact with the tooth or amalgam at around 4-10mm away and leave it on 6-7.5 watts for 2 mins with water on . It doesnt cut but often provides some temporary analgesia not anaesthesia, that allows you to quickly remove the amalgam. Some will hold the laser close to the tooth in one hand and the highspeed in the other while cutting. The problem is I need another hand to take a picture with the scope then!!
Anyways after two minutes I removed the amalgam with a handpiece and alot of water being careful to remove the amalgam without touching the tooth much. I noticed decay around the amalgam on the distal, now was this distal decay not visible on the radiograph adjacent to the crown I had placed 3 years ago or recurrent decay on the occlusal. Only one way to find out. I used the laser and started to cut the decay only to find it increasing in size……..darn it all, on the distal.
No anesthetic at all so now my little occlusal is a moderate DO restoration. I placed an interguard in her tooth and tried to not break the contacts buccal and lingual just following the extent of the decay on the distal as an outline (theoretically this is the widest part of the decay as it hits the DEJ) and also realizing that most times the centre of the decay is at the contact buccal-lingually.
I removed the distal marginal ridge with a 600 micron tip at 30 Hz and 160 mj trying not to touch the dentin much. After I got into the contact area interproximally I reduced the energy so as not to cut drastically below the contact because this can easily cut the gingival soft tissue and start bleeding which isnt easy to control then. Its slower at the reduced settings of 30 hz and 80-100 mj but safer.
I then used a little round bur to confirm decay removal and the laser at the end to remove the smear layer. A tiny portion of the conservative prep cracked (visible with the scope) as the enamel was undermined and that was removed without clearing the interproximal contact Buccal and lingual on the distal of the tooth. Since the contact was not completely removed and the decay was removed. I kept the interguard in place which is slightly thicker. Traditional etch and bond , followed by Dyract Flow and then Gradia was placed and the patient was dismissed after the restoration was adjusted and polished. The evacuation and dry field was created through use of the Isolite, which for laser dentistry in adults is very effective.
THis just shows a case like we all see which starts out as a ….” no problem Miss Jones , this one we can do with the laser , its not that deep” to a hmmm……..is this going to be sensitive.
The patient is a former dental assistant and so that makes it all the more interesting as a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous and she knew it might hurt once I realized it was a DO.
Again, nothing to say traditional dentistry couldnt have done it similarly with equal results, just wanted to show the thought process behind this case.
Glenn
ELLIOT ROGOFFSpectatorGLENN, I LOVE YOUR PHOTOGRAPHY. I KNOW YOU DO ALOT WITH THE MICROSCOPE BUT CAN YOU TELL ME HOW YOU ARE ABLE TO GET THE IMAGES TO BE POSTED. I MUST NOT HAVE THE RIGHT SET-UP BECAUSE EACH TIME I TRY TO USE THE “PAPER CLIP” THE IMAGES DO NOT SHOW. THE ONLY WAY I CAN SHOW THEM IS TO E-MAIL THEM TO DAVE KIMMEL WHO IS KIND ENOUGH TO POST THEM FOR ME. ANY SUGGESTIONS.
Glenn van AsSpectatorElliot, its late now. Tomorrow I will post a pictorial image (collage ) of what I do to do this.
Its not that tough once you know what you need to do. I use ACDSee 7.0 (brand new version now!!) and its really good for editing and adding text. Its quicker now so its saving me time in the editing part.
Let me see if tomorrow I have time to show you what I do.
Gotta sleep now.
Glenn
AnonymousGuestQUOTEQuote: from ELLIOT ROGOFF on 9:53 pm on Sep. 25, 2004
GLENN, I LOVE YOUR PHOTOGRAPHY. I KNOW YOU DO ALOT WITH THE MICROSCOPE BUT CAN YOU TELL ME HOW YOU ARE ABLE TO GET THE IMAGES TO BE POSTED. I MUST NOT HAVE THE RIGHT SET-UP BECAUSE EACH TIME I TRY TO USE THE “PAPER CLIP” THE IMAGES DO NOT SHOW. THE ONLY WAY I CAN SHOW THEM IS TO E-MAIL THEM TO DAVE KIMMEL WHO IS KIND ENOUGH TO POST THEM FOR ME. ANY SUGGESTIONS.Elliott your pictures must be jpegs and under 300kb. If you keep a jpeg under 500 pixels wide you’ll be ok size wise.
dkimmelSpectatorGlenn is that an Isolite I see??
Nice case! I have yet to remove an old alloy that did not have caries! I figure it has to be from those little microfactures we get from using the drill.
I have found this technique to be pretty predictable. As you know I run the laser at the same time as the drill. You might try having the assisant hold the laser while you control it with the foot switch. I usually have to do this with max 2nd molars.
Pretty wild morning here. We are not getting wind gust to 50MPH. Looks like the eye will be coming through here later today and should get some heavy rain and wind.. Fl can be such fun this time of year!!
DAvid
Glenn van AsSpectatorDavid , keep down ok, I dont want you wandering around aimlessly today, looking for a tree to sit in to make you LDF posts or wandering around in that white getup you used the other day for the papilloma removal!!
I find it hard to control both the laser and handpiece together. My staff say I cant chew gum and walk at the same time. I find it unfair when I am looking through the scope at 10X power and my assistant is not (even if she is looking at the monitor), she doesnt have the ability to hold the laser at the optimum position, and will either move too far away or too close and start cutting. ITs because she hasnt developed the necessary fine motor skills that are necessary to work at 10X power. I mean that in all seriousness. Its too tough to do this even from looking at a monitor to hold it properly because you dont get the depth perception in 2d that you get from looking through the scope which is 3d.
Hope that helps, I would have to lower the mag to 2.5X to work and I would then more likely hit dentin with the bur more often because I couldnt see the transition with the water and debris.
Just my thoughts but I have always said you were more capable than me!!…….You may be ambidextrous………
I am gonna leave this thread alone now, I just dont want to go any further!!
Stay low my friend.
Glenn
Glenn van AsSpectatorPS Yes David it was an Isolite as this patient has ALOT of TMJ pain and the isolite allows them to bite into something to prevent jaw fatique as well as being an awesome piece of armamentarium for keeping the tooth dry.
I had a case this week where a young girl prevented me from using it ( pulled it out). God I was mad as she was one of those unruly teenagers with decay on an upper first molar (DL groove). I almost told her ok, now we have to do it with anesthetic and the rubber dam, but instead decide to do 6 handed dentistry to keep the tooth dry.
What a pain in the rear to put it mildly. I could have done the restorations with far less stress by myself with the isolite. Instead without it or the dam I need not one but two dental assistants.
If you own a laser but dont own an Isolite, run – dont walk- out there and get one.
I again dont get any kickbacks for this.
Glenn
drjinglesSpectatorHey….where did I come from..
I got lost off the forum…and way out of the loop
but I’m back….
that is if you guys’ll still have me…Glenn can you get the Isolite in Canada now?
I havn’t been able to find a distributor…
the other tool I really really really want is
an introflow….(cyberjet) ….
to do intra osseous….without having to
find the hole anymore…anyways..
are you using the light from the isolite?
or your scope…
I know both can light things up like
a roman candle in there…nice job on the amalgam removal laser anesthesia thing.
I have been doing that with mostly great success
ever since I heard Dr. Colanna talk about it..what a difference it makes….in my life..
thanks Mark..I havn’t found it totally foolproof…yet..
but I’d have to say….it performs unbelievable
miracles about 90% of the time..and if the sensitivity starts coming back..
i just defocus and drench the tooth again
for another 90 seconds or so…sometimes it depends how hot the tooth was in the
first place…ie…how much inflamation..but I have done much much much bigger gigantic
and symptomatic hot teeth with Mark’s method..so I will vouch for it..
here is what I have found that may be
counter intuitive though..the more rotten and more decayed..
the less sensitive teeth are ….
a lot of the time..the most sensitive area seems to be
right at the DEJ for most people..
below it…above it…not so bad…btw…this holds true for lasers, drills
spoons, air abrasion …whatever..sometimes the ones that are the most sensitive
or the most resistant …
are the smallest teeniest amalgams..seems odd…
but sort of makes sense when you think about it.
btw…my first guinea pig for this
was my wife…
she had a blow out…
(ya …I know its grounds for divorce
but Its a long story….)in any case….she was sensitive
to the water and air as we started..
I told her to trust me…
and lo and behold….
the sensitivity disipated fast…
and the next thing I knew..
I moved in on the tooth with the
the handpiece and just started ablating
away enamel …to expose the decay..
then the decay…..we are still married..
Ohoh..
that reminds me..
I told her I was on my way home for dinner..Yikes
I’m outa here…catch yall later.
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