Lasers in Dentistry - Laser Dentistry Forum

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July 20, 2005 at 1:34 am #3098 Reply

dkimmel
Spectator

This week has been an interesting week fo me. I have been learning and playing with my new laser , the Periolase 7. It has lead me to reflect on the last several years of doing laser dentistry. As most of you know I converted my practice over to laser dentistry and am now the Florida Center for Laser Dentistry. Doing this forced me to get not only good with my lasers but productive as well. It is nice to play and have fun but you have to pay the bills. With close to over &#36175,000 dollars in lasers you got make some &#36 to have a ROI.
I have been luck andand have done both. It has not been easy but it has been a great adventure. From the new friends to the ablity to help patients seek dental care that they never would have without the laser.

Enough of that. Working with the Periolase has really made it clear to me that dentistry can be done with one type of laser but not well and not efficently. I have worked hard to get my Erbium to do things that some said could not be done and the same with the diode. That is from restorative to perio. I am finding that with the Er, the diode and the Nd:YAG that it is a great mix. Things that I had to struggle with one laser can easly been done with another. ( Yea, a CO2 would be nice but my wife would leave me.) Now don’t get me wrong it really is nuts to buy all the lasers I have. I am a slow learner. The other thought I have had is that even though the process of using the laser is the same for each type of laser– so many things are different. It is like starting over again to get the feel of the Nd:YAG.

I also need bigger ops!!! Man my rooms have gotten smaller. I need to go on a diet.

I think Bob and Del are so right about varable pulse duration. However, the use of the right pulse durations .
Lasers are going to have to get smaller, more user friendly, less expensive and laser companies are going to have to have training before delivery , if Lasers are going to stay strong in dentistry.

Ok night. I’ll edit tomorrow

July 20, 2005 at 1:45 pm #8704 Reply

Robert Gregg DDS
Spectator

Hey David,

Did Susan go to bed early and leave you with access to your computer?

If it’s “nuts” to have the number of lasers you have, what would you call it with the number Del and I have?

a. Insane
b. Bizzare
c. Bordering on fetish
d. Museum
e. Two guys without a life
f. Tax deductions
g. All of the above

Enjoy!

Bob

July 20, 2005 at 1:54 pm #8680 Reply

dkimmel
Spectator

After learning to know you both the answer is G.

However, C is probably the big one with A close behind

July 20, 2005 at 4:27 pm #8699 Reply

Nick Luizzi
Spectator

David, Good Post. Thanks for shareing your journey with us. The things that you say only confirm the idea that when you have a vision for your life and the passon to fulfill it, that it creates an energy that’s unstoppabled. This laser stuff is really cool, your points of view help all the rest of us on our individual journeys. Don’t let the hurricanes get you. Nick

July 21, 2005 at 3:35 am #8708 Reply

Swpmn
Spectator

It’s definitely a journey.

My greatest concern today is the marketing of lasers to dentists. Hype, BS and outright lies. Unrealistic expectations. Wrong wavelength for legitimate procedures. Optional training.

The application of lasers in dentistry is so different from our dental school handpiece training that we must insist on proper training prior to purchase of a dental laser. Every dentist purchasing a dental laser should be required to undergo instruction in laser physics, laser safety and scientifically-based clinical application of the chosen wavelength. When I first started, I didn’t know a rat’s a&#36&#36 about anything, believed all the lies and made every mistake in the book.

July 21, 2005 at 10:37 am #8679 Reply

dkimmel
Spectator

When I first started, I didn’t know a rat’s a&#36&#36 about anything, believed all the lies and made every mistake in the book.

Man , Allen you know how to get to the heart of the matter. You are so right. Though I think I may have made a few more mistakes.

July 24, 2005 at 4:08 pm #8689 Reply

whitertth
Spectator

This is interesting…..I have been thinking alot the past few weeks about the “tone” of Laser dentistry these days….Interestingly enough everything seems to have quieted down a bit…Message boards, LDF, articles in Journals, etc…I dont really know why..I have a theory that may or may not be true…Biolase has blazed the trail the last number of years puting laser dentistry in the forefront of dentist’s minds, with Ads, tradeshow hype etc….Their hype ( good or bad) has died down and it seems the laser industry buzz and quieted down as well….While companies may be still selling lasers it seems the excitemnt for many has dwindled….I think the negativity that always seems to rise in dental town dosent help either…I’m sure the action will start again ..I think it takes lifers like many of use here on LDF to keep the dental laser world on the edge of their seats….Just a thought ………

(Edited by whitertth at 12:09 pm on July 24, 2005)

July 24, 2005 at 5:11 pm #8683 Reply

jetsfan
Spectator

Ron,
I agree with you that the tone has quieted down. Here’s my take on it. We have all been here about 4 years now. At first everything was new and exciting. We we in the”discovery” phase. We found alternative ways of doing things , generally for the betterment of the patient. Now that we have become so comfortable with our lasers ,we and our patients have come to expect the results. What’s left to say?
Sales figures demonstate that there is more interest in lasers now, than ever before.
For me, right now, LLLT is very exciting. Unfortunately, it is difficult to document with photos a patients perceived decrease in pain or the reversal of a parasthesia.

Footbal season coming soon!
and for those north of the border, I believe that something called ice hockey(if I remember the name correctly)in the form of the NHL will have another go at it…..finally.

Robert

July 25, 2005 at 12:40 am #8687 Reply

whitertth
Spectator

I am not so sure about sales…I think many companies would say sales are down…I do think that the planned LDF meeting in the spring will shake the laser world up a bit and be alot of fun…Hope to see all of you there…

July 25, 2005 at 2:14 pm #8697 Reply

Glenn van As
Spectator

Hi there Ron and Robert…….yes for sure the buzz around lasers has slowed. I think that the early adopters are in, some have taken the time to learn their laser, others havent and arent using them as much as they want. Lasers still havent dropped below the 10 K mark except for a few diodes and the packaging hasnt gotten any smaller.

I for one still use my lasers daily and still take alot of photos but there comes a time when it becomes more difficult to post photos all the time.

That time is coming for me.

Its interesting to see the energy dying on DT in the laser forum, and here things are alarmingly quiet. Only a few post cases now and the number of new members has slowed.

I am not so sure that we havent seen a peak in the industry and I suspect now over the next few years that some lasers will close business and that there will be a consolidation of the companies, wavelengths and many of the minor players will cease to exist.

Its an interesting time for sure and I do hope that the LDF meeting comes off soon as I worry that it might be tough otherwise to get people to attend.

All the best, enjoy your lasers and folks……..post some photos.

Glenn

July 25, 2005 at 2:29 pm #8705 Reply

Robert Gregg DDS
Spectator

QUOTE

Quote: from whitertth on 12:08 pm on July 24, 2005
This is interesting…..I have been thinking alot the past few weeks about the “tone” of Laser dentistry these days….Interestingly enough everything seems to have quieted down a bit…Message boards, LDF, articles in Journals, etc…I dont really know why..I have a theory that may or may not be true…Biolase has blazed the trail the last number of years puting laser dentistry in the forefront of dentist’s minds, with Ads, tradeshow hype etc….Their hype ( good or bad) has died down and it seems the laser industry buzz and quieted down as well….While companies may be still selling lasers it seems the excitemnt for many has dwindled….I think the negativity that always seems to rise in dental town dosent help either…I’m sure the action will start again ..I think it takes lifers like many of use here on LDF to keep the dental laser world on the edge of their seats….Just a thought ………

(Edited by whitertth at 12:09 pm on July 24, 2005)

I’ve seen the cycle eb and flow 3 times now. Back when ADL ruled the scene, then Premier, then Biolase.

If the technology is good, its awareness will return again.

Bob

July 25, 2005 at 2:43 pm #8703 Reply

Robert Gregg DDS
Spectator

Hey Glenn and All,

Lasers still havent dropped below the 10 K mark except for a few diodes and the packaging hasnt gotten any smaller.

Just ain’t gonna happen to have lasers at or below &#3610,000 .

Anyone see new car prices go down in the last 10 years? And new cars are manufacturered in volumes much greater than laser ever could be if the entire World of dentists bought lasers……………

I remember Irv Arons–a laser industry consultant–back in 1990 telling me he NEVER imagined dentists would pay &#3650,000 for a laser. He laughed at how wrong he was.

He later predicted that laser won’t penetrate the mainstream of dentistry until lasers reached &#361000 per watt.

Wrong again, Irv.

Cost is not the barrier. Lack of perceived value is the barrier.

Cost won’t drop until there is a MAJOR technology breakthrough that even Ted Maiman doesn’t see on the horizon.

And there simply are not the numbers (millions of potential customers like cell phones) to make “qualtity of scale” purchase of component parts a reality.

I wish it was different. It’s a pain as a manufacturer to have high cost componenets that have complexity as well.

Bob
these now hand-made, custom component devices to

July 25, 2005 at 5:14 pm #8677 Reply

Anonymous
Guest

I’ll add my input and I think four factors are involved especially in regards to forum activity.

1. those early adapters who took the time to really learn how to use their lasers have just become too busy in their practices to be taking pictures all the time

2. unless someone really uses their imagination and finds a new use for their laser, we have about covered the gamut here. How many times have we all answered the same repeat questions on DT?

3.while lasers are fun and exciting, the excitement over time, wanes a little and we remember life outside of dentistry is more important than having all your time consumed by it.

4. if it won’t replace a handpiece, the majority of dentists will not invest that kind of money in a laser. I think the psychology here is especially important when in 2002 you could buy an erbium in the low 40’s and now your talking 60’s-70’s

JMHO

July 26, 2005 at 2:25 am #8681 Reply

dkimmel
Spectator

Very interesting!!!
So many good points!!!

Ron is right as things have cooled off.
The other Ron is right also right. How many times can we post an DO laser prep or a GV Laser dentistry has been the nor for most of us for some time now.
It also does take time to post and putting cases together even takes more. Many of us are busy as heck and trying to get balance in our lives as well as advance our understanding of laser dentistry….
Bob is correct . I don’t expect laser to drop in price except in the diode family.

Biolase had a great deal to do with the new wave in laser users, encluding myself. I think they really had the oppurtunity to make it to the tipping point. The market was right. It was a very much improved technology , the economy was down for many dentist and they where looking for the magic pill , it was a perfect marketing niche in a profession that was finally starting to market and the patients where ready for something new in dentistry!!! Some many things look right for lasers to finally become mainstream.
What happened? Well the ALD dropped the ball and stayed a good old boys club, Biolase screwed up—-Yep Biolase screwed up—- You just can not have a business model thats treats customers like crap and keep growing. It catches up with you. Biolase has a creditablity gap and they need to start working on it… Yesterday. Hoya…….. they also blew it. Hanging on the coattails of Biolase’s marketing and now partnering with Schein… Now thats a joke.. Get a cotton role salesperson to sell a laser!!!! Deka– they shot themselfs in the foot by telling Er lasers just don’t work buy a CO2.. Nothing like having someone tell you that you can not do what you have been doing for years!!!
Fontana— tooooo late to join the party…
Millennium— about the only hope left to bring the laser market back into the forefront. It will be interesting to see how the control their growth and continue to market.

Now that I’ve done it again!! Anyone want to lend me a name tag for the meetings next year?

Oh, and just so you know, I still believe laser dentistry will become more mainstream. It is just going to take a new player to come along or some event to push us back to the Tipping point!!

Darn, Susan caught me again!!!!! Got to go!
David

July 26, 2005 at 12:03 pm #8684 Reply

jetsfan
Spectator

David,
I agree with most of what you said.
I still believe that more lasers (in total)are being sold now than ever. Perhaps the rate of growth of sales has significantly decreased. But as there will continue to be this din of sales growth, it is a matter of time before it is mainstream.
One has only to look at digital xrays as an example.That is by far the most important piece of technology I have in my office. Heck I have it 8 years and the debate still goes on as to its importance. If the profession can’t accept this outright how are they going to accept lasers.
No it’s going to take time, but eventually most(new graduates) will realize the benefits of new technology ,and reach into their pockets.

Robert
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