If you guys want to check out a great LLLT website, check out: <a href="http://www.laser.nu/

A” target=”_blank”>http://www.laser.nu/

A great website. Also, for great text books, check out:
<a href="http://www.prima-books.com/

Kelly” target=”_blank”>http://www.prima-books.com/

Kelly

……….unfortuntely testimonials are the worst anecdotes we have…….

Dear Herb,

Thanks for your reply.

I hope that I might save you some time, effort, energy and angst now that you have discovered the wonders of biomodulation.  I have seen others similarly enthused before in the last 15 years–and a few are very sad people today because the World did not follow suit with their observations.

I’ll respond in line fashion:

Dear Gregg,

Thank you for your comments.  Energy is energy no matter where it comes from.  The quality, the ability to penetrate all varies greatly.  

I agree with both your points.

I never said cure,

Neither did I.  I said that I chose not to use the word “cure”……..

I talked about a jaw to skull relationship that proprioceptively messages the cerebral cortex and the cerebral cortex interprets that message.  The interpretation of the message by the cerebral cortex is what instructs the various body functions to react the way they do.  A very complex system that cannot be explained briefly; see ‘The Dental Physician ‘ by Fonder and his extensive bibliography.

I don’t have a clue as to what what you are talking about.  The more complex the system or explanation becomes, the more skeptical I become…..

You may call it “voodoo dominating our clinical aspirations “ and needing better controlled science etc.

Herb.  Please.  Read what I actually wrote, not what you think I said.  And please reply in the context of my statement.

I wrote, “I think Allen’s point is that we are evolving in dentistry and here on this forum from anecdotal reports of seemingly laser “voodoo” dominating our clinical inspirations and asking that there be more well-controlled science to support our activities.”

I said “seemingly laser voodoo” to reflect how those of us talking about LLLT/HLLT appear to other folks not similarly aware.

I do not call it voodoo, but I agree more are needed and are being done.

Good, but the studies must be well designed and with a control group.

Would you respect a Meta study the studies the literature and only analyses studies that are properly done?

It’s not for me alone to say or suggest.  It is the opinion of the people that I wish would appreciate LLLT/HLLT that are telling me we lack good data.

On the other hand what if a child of yours through our beloved medical science and diagnostic abilities was diagnosed with degenerative arthritis at age 30 and a deranged TMJ joint needing surgical intervention because of pain so great with every bite and debilitating migraines.  Questioning how people could want to live if they had to endure such pain. This was my daughter at 30 years of age.  My traditional TMJ treatment did not scratch the surface and while at ALD I found this modality of LLL added to DDSyndrome treatment as advocated by Fonder over 39 months ago.  She has been migraine free, TMJ pain free, and no sign of degenerative arthritis since I brought the laser home.  She does bone marrow transplants as a physician assistant a very stressful job.  Should I not of used this, or told anyone, because the science does not meet your standards.

More anecdotes.  Anecdotes are not data.  They are not even case studies until they are written up and published somewhere.  They are not “my” standards anyway!

My partner and I have been treating these conditions with laser biostimulation/modulations for nearly 15 years for me and 17 years for him.  

Now where in anything that I have posted did I suggest you ignore your best clinical judgement?  

Way back at the turn of the 20th century or right before I think it was Lister (not sure) who had his medical license taken away because he told everyone that simply washing hands before delivering babies would cut down on the mortality rate of new borns.  A few years later the mortality rate was cut way down when the medical world began washing hands.

Yes, I know.  It was Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis.  1860’s……I mention this story from time to time.  He is an example of what I caution enthusiastic believers of the unproven methodology to be careful of.  He was eventually proven correct, but in the process he accused the skeptics of being murders.  So they shuffled him off to an insane asylum where he died weeks later:

“He became alternately apathetic and pathologically enraged about his mission as a saviour of mothers. In July 1865 Semmelweis suffered what appeared to be a form of mental illness; and after a journey to Vienna imposed by friends and relatives, he was committed to an asylum, the Niederösterreichische Landesirrenanstalt in Wien Döbling. He died there only two weeks later.”

http://www.whonamedit.com/doctor.cfm/354.html

I do not believe I ever said cure.  I never cure anything with LLL.

You will……….;)

I never give therapy with LLL, I provide energy.

I don’t get that one….. :confused:

I feel posting procedures that make a difference can help the world.

Great.  Just don’t go crazy when you learn the World doesn’t want or appreciate your help–or mine for that matter.  

Learning about DDS and applying it when it can make a difference is mandatory in my mind.

Well, right now that is an opinion.  Tell us more in detail.  Science would be helpful.  

Kind of like NICO or “cavitation” lesions.  I didn’t believe in them when the proponents told me all about them.  Now I see them in my patients and want to know why our profession has ignored this phenomenon for so long.  :confused:

Although I choose to not breath vapors from mercury and eliminated that from my office for that reason 12 years ago, I am witness to the many people not helped by the removal but are helped by the treatment of DDS.  LVI does it their way, very expensive to learn and very costly for the patient.  I transcend that by light years when I add energy to my use and understanding of vertical dimension and the role it plays in my treatments.

Sounds very “transcendental”.

I think I will never be quiet for I am helping so many so often and this message needs to be talked about.

No.  This message needs science.

I did not cure CFIS; I do not know if the medical diagnosis is correct.  I altered vertical by a certain oral device that was facilitated by laser energy because the energy allowed the muscle chemistry to start working so the fibers relaxed.  This was necessary in order to balance the device correctly.  

Yep.  Do that all the time–have for years.  

Those of you that think this is voodoo and will not look at the clinical possibilities so be it.

Again, Herb, please read the words posted, not what you think I said.  I never said it was voodoo.  To others that don’t know anything about it sounds like voodoo.  Don’t you think?

I feel sorry for the people who are not helped.

Me too.  So my partner and I narrowed down our efforts on one disease process (periodontal disease), and researched its treatment with laser and invested in the science to appeal to others who require the scientific method.  We are now–12 short years later–where FDA has recognized our protocol.

It ain’t easy.  It’s just the right way to promote a healing methodology.

There is literature and in time I will gather it.  I will re-enter this thread in a few days.  My time is limited right now.

See you soon.

Is it voodoo if you have a frozen shoulder from the dental posture and nothing helps it for months and months?  You cannot play golf or tennis because of it and in 6 minutes it releases with LLL.

Oh, please Herb, let’s not talk about tennis following injuries and laser biomodulation–I could write a book on it.  But I never will.

Guess what, not all LLL will release it.  They are different.

I know……..

You mentioned the Microlite, a good infrared laser diode laser if you want to deal with the grizzle of the body.  Joints, cartilage, tendons, ligaments, etc.  great for carpel tunnel.  I would not use it on my tooth for anesthesia, on a herpetic ulcer, or other soft tissue problems. It is too stimulating.  Usually the infrared LLL are at 500mw.  So I am effectively saying do not lump all LLL as one.  Some are LED’s and simply cannot cut it at all.  Programmable LLL are the way to go.

I understand that is the current thinking among LLLT advocates.

Anyway thanks for the reply and obviously we see the world a little differently and that is how we grow.

Differently?  Perhaps through the glass distantly…….

Talk to you in a few days.

Sincerely,
Herb Yolin,

Best regards,

Bob

(Edited by Robert Gregg DDS at 9:14 pm on June 13, 2005)

Sorry Dr. Katz, if my posting sound disrespectful to you, that was not my intention.

What i want to say is, that we all have some basic facts in laser dentistry. The decontamination effect of 810 nm in a number of applications is well known and published for 10 years now.

I see absolutly no need for making studies on effects and treatment protocols which are well known, cleared by the FDA and other Administrations.

There are no differences in TEM between the elexxion claros and other fibre-coupled 810 nm diode lasers when emitting in CW mode.

IMHO it makes more sense to put the money in studies to explore new treatment protocols.

For a better understanding: The elexxion claros is able to deliver the same wavelength, power, NA, TEM than dozens of other diode laser units. Thats a technical fact and can be checked easily. But this unit has additionaly the unique possibilty to deliver high power / ultra short pulses. In the moment this technology is only used in surgical applications and in controled clinical studies in the perio and endo field. If there are positive results in the future the units can easily be updated.

olaf

With extreme respect to my friends and colleagues on this board, I am open minded to all form of LLT even in fact minimal science exists. Many of you know about my pemphigoid patient that I treated with my ErCrysgg laser and for at least 18 months so far I have cured her of her pemphigoid..Now there really was not any direct science behind it,( onr slightly analagous medical study in 1999) but no direct studies, yet I tried it with using some logic and it worked. So I am not so adamantly opposed to logical treatment with any kind of laser as long as there is potential benefit with little chance of harm and obviuosly patient needs to be informed. I can understand the position of the scientists in our group, but clinical results in the best interest of patients is exrtremely important to me. I for one always have and continue to have interest in LLLT regardless of wavelength and would be interested to hear more interesting stuff…
Just my personal opinion…still love all of you….